damigella: (are_you_sure?)
[personal profile] damigella
One of the things I did like: House's joke about what comes after "Boxing".



1. Why would Foreman decide or agree to do something that must make Wilson pissed at him, too? It's not like his tenure will be any easier if he angers Department Heads for no reason. It seems stupid, which is not IC for him.

2. Why would three doctors care for boxing, a "sport" where the "players" systematically sustain medical injuries, acute and longterm?

3. Was it by police request that Foreman had to be with House in Atlantic City? Was it Foreman's decision because he wanted to go as well? Was it House's? If so, is it because he wants to suck up to his Dean, or because he prefers his company to Wilson's, or because he's testing Wilson's friendship again, or because he just finds it a fun prank?
More importantly, how do we know which it is?

Homily: [Of course the main question is #3.] Many fans were pissed at House (and some at Wilson). I was too stunned by the complete lack of logic/explanations to be able to have any reaction at all. Maybe I missed something because of my poor English.
Imho House does need to get out of the apartment/hospital groove much more than Wilson needs to see a boxing match.
I don't think one can pass moral judgement on House's behavior as if he were a free-acting agent. He isn't. He is on parole, and Foreman has complete control as to whether he goes back to jail. His freedom is very limited and his future (professionally as well) totally uncertain.

Blessing: thank you so much to all those that wrote fics/musings/anything. Any of them had more logic and sense and coherency in it than canon did.

Date: 2011-11-18 09:35 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] menolly-au.livejournal.com
Why would Foreman decide or agree to do something that must make Wilson pissed at him, too?

Maybe it's an attempt to win House over, make him think Foreman is on his side, as part of his master plan to 'control' House. Maybe it's Foreman attempting to have some 'fun' - since House is always on about how he's boring boring boring. Maybe Foreman really really likes boxing and is desparate to go (but in that case why take House?) Maybe Foreman has for years been harbouring a secret love for House and this is his first move?

Why would three doctors care for boxing, a "sport" where the "players" systematically sustain medical injuries, acute and longterm?

Can see House liking boxing, not Wilson and probably not Foreman as he has always been careful not to associate with things that would seem stereotypical for his background. Loved Park calling it a boxing game ...

Was it Foreman's decision because he wanted to go as well?

I believe the writer has said it was Foreman's plan, in which case why take House? Doesn't the guy have any friends he actually likes? He could have taken Chase even.

Imho House does need to get out of the apartment/hospital groove much more than Wilson needs to see a boxing match.
I don't think one can pass moral judgement on House's behavior as if he were a free-acting agent. He isn't. He is on parole, and Foreman has complete control as to whether he goes back to jail. His freedom is very limited and his future (professionally as well) totally uncertain.


I could go along with this if we had seen any sign of House being bothered by his 'house' arrest or by the threat of going back to jail. He acts like it doesn't worry him. Contrary to what Wilson says (which is another nitpick for this episode) that House has 'done nothing wrong, not even a traffic ticket' House has done quite a few illegal and disruptive things since his return - no way is Foreman going to return him to jail, he has stated several times that he's trying to keep House out of jail. I wish there was a bit more prison/parole angst myself...

Date: 2011-11-18 09:52 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] damigella-314.livejournal.com
Great point about Foreman and boxing.

I believe the writer has said it was Foreman's plan, in which case why take House?
Thanks for the explanation. Still, the fact you have to quote the writer confirms my impression that it wasn't clear from the ep. And then I really find it illogical. As you said, why take House?

if we had seen any sign of House being bothered by his 'house' arrest or by the threat of going back to jail.
For the second, I'd quote the care with which he covered up his attempt at de-ankling.
For the first, how would he? It wouldn't be House if he just sat there and whined. I took his continuous mentioning of the anklet and testing its limits as a sign he's bothered. Plus, he was always going out so much... I can't believe he doesn't miss it.
Maybe I'm just projecting, though.

he has stated several times that he's trying to keep House out of jail.
Probably. Still it's a decision he can change anytime. He has a power over House no man should have on another.

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Date: 2011-11-18 10:17 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] julefontane.livejournal.com
I will try some explaining:
1) I think it is established that Foreman is (or can be) an ass, too, early on in the series, and doesn't care who gets screwed in the process. He is constantly compared to House.
2) O.K., why wouldn't doctors be fans of boxing matches? I know a surgon who loves gory things, and I think that fits the profession! If you are squirmish, like me, you don't become a medical doctor! I faint at the sight of blood...
3) I think someone had to accompany House to Atlantic City, he wasn't allowed to go on his own. And that someone could have been either Foreman or Wilson. But because Foreman tricked Wilson and was (and I'm guessing here) in charge of the decission whether House goes or not (because he seems to be something like House's parole officer), Foreman ended up going with House. Twisted and mean, but not illogic or out of character!

Good to hear you aren't pissed at any character! I'm not pissed at any character or writer, either, and I didn't think anyone was 'OOC'. No hard feelings. I don't get why people don't get it. I either enjoy a show or I switch off. But this constant negative approach just isn't funny or enlightening.

Date: 2011-11-19 06:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] damigella-314.livejournal.com
2. LOL at doctors not being squeamish - I certainly could never have been one! But it's a very unhealthy sport. Three out of three doctors being nuts about it seems weird.

3. Your interpretation seems to place most of the responsibility on Foreman's shoulders. I totally believe him capable of that, except I would find it a bit stupid since he'd normally need Wilson's support on the Board. But maybe he has such a sizable majority in it that he can afford to piss Wilson. [I spent too much time computing majorities in Boards from my own mental well-being.]

I didn't think anyone was 'OOC'. No hard feelings.
I do occasionally feel that someone is acting OoC, but it's no reason to have hard feelings towards a character. I have been known to be angry at the writers :).

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Date: 2011-11-18 01:05 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cuddyclothes.livejournal.com
Foreman takes House because House is the star of the show and you wouldn't have a proper sight gag with any other cast member--unless both House and Wilson were in the apartment and Foreman took Park.

Date: 2011-11-19 06:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] damigella-314.livejournal.com
LOL. This explanation definitely makes sense ;). I laughed so hard at the visual of Park cheering a boxe game match.

Date: 2011-11-18 01:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] resm.livejournal.com
I'm with you, although I got that House and Wilson watched boxing together since their bet somewhere in season 7 lol. I gathered that it was kind of like their monster truck thing, totally out of character for Wilson, but because it was something House enjoyed, Wilson jumped on the bandwagon. I hope he gets one-up on them. That said, he did punch House this season lol.

Date: 2011-11-18 04:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pgrabia.livejournal.com
I would love an episode this season with Wilson pranking House so completely that House truly gets a taste of his own medicine:) That said, I really don't want it to be malicious. I ship these guys, after all.

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Date: 2011-11-19 06:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] damigella-314.livejournal.com
because it was something House enjoyed, Wilson jumped on the bandwagon.
You're right that this often seems to be the case. I'm wondering now whether, when Wilson and Cuddy went to see the art exhibition (which wasn't, ahem, the one they expected) it was again Wilson trying to please Cuddy rather than enjoying himself.

Date: 2011-11-18 03:53 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] srsly-yes.livejournal.com
Disclaimer: 97% of what I'm about to say is with tongue firmly planted in cheek.
1. Why would Foreman decide or agree to do something that must make Wilson pissed at him, too? It's not like his tenure will be any easier if he angers Department Heads for no reason. It seems stupid, which is not IC for him.
--A. Doesn't matter. Foreman's the boss.
--B. Foreman knows Wilson is an easy going guy.
--C. It's a guy thing. (which I'll never understand)
--D. It's the House universe (which I'll never quite understand)

2. Why would three doctors care for boxing, a "sport" where the "players" systematically sustain medical injuries, acute and longterm?
--A. Job security.
--B. For the same reason doctors are overweight and will admonish a patient for smoking while holding a lit cigarette in their hand.
--C. HL took up boxing as a hobby.
--D. It's the new monster trucks. Boxing was previously established as a favorite of House and Wilson's in 7x21 "The Fix".
--E. It's a guy thing... and a gambling thing. (which I'll never understand)

3. Was it by police request that Foreman had to be with House in Atlantic City? [Unlikely. In "Transplant" and "Parents" House and Foreman discuss extending his roaming range.] Was it Foreman's decision because he wanted to go as well? Was it House's? If so, is it because he wants to suck up to his Dean, or because he prefers his company to Wilson's, or because he's testing Wilson's friendship again, or because he just finds it a fun prank?
More importantly, how do we know which it is?

--A) More importantly... this plot point was poorly executed. I'm not sure if the blame lies with Eli Attie or Greg Yaitanes or a combination of the two, but until I saw Attie's v-blog I was under the impression House was behind the scheme. His track record indicates he's always one step ahead of everybody, and there's little history establishing Foreman as secretive or manipulative. I recall only two times--dating Wendy and getting a raise. Most likely Foreman wanted to see the fight ringside as much as House did. Did I mention it's a guy thing?

To give you an idea what a big deal seeing the boxing match can be, in RL tickets easily sell for hundreds of dollars a piece. To watch a prize fight on television, you pay extra for the premium cable channel plus a separate fee for the fight, which is approximately $50.

Date: 2011-11-19 04:31 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] leakey-lover.livejournal.com
3A? This is the maybe 3rd time I've wrestled with the logic of the thing and discovered it was written by Attie.

I will take your word that there exists a v-log without subjecting myself to it.

'Nuff said.

Thank you, all, for elucidating.

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Date: 2011-11-19 05:20 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] barefootpuddles.livejournal.com
More importantly... this plot point was poorly executed.

This has been a huge point of contention from season 6 on for me. The writers/producers keep saying that they want to show, not tell, the audience what is going on and that we all have to interpret it how it fits for us. But then the audience either winds up interpreting it completely differently than what they say they intended (Moving On, Out of the Chute, Risky Business) or no one can really figure out what they meant at all (last weeks episode and a ton of others). Honestly, may they'd be better if they just started putting commentary voice overs to go with the episodes.

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Date: 2011-11-19 06:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] damigella-314.livejournal.com
That was a great explanation. I found extra enlightening the detail about the cable TV prices, and will now try to watch the ep again imagining it's the final of the Champions League and their team is competing for the first time in thirty years :).

And LOL at the smoking doctors - there's so many of those, although at least Wilson's been a consistent oncologist so far. On the other hand, having one overweight character in the show would make it reflect better the US average.

If even native speakers need v-blogs to get plot points I feel excused when I miss them :).

Date: 2011-11-18 05:28 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] brindlewolf.livejournal.com
The whole episode was very confusing. I liked it up until that last scene. But I didn't think Attie's explanation on that vlog was very clear. House MUST have been in on the scam too, or else why would Foreman have taken him along? What Foreman said to Wilson while he was scamming him actually made some sense ... but to throw away the whole "lesson" and line of reasoning by scamming Wilson at the end was just so - ODD. And Wilson's delivery of his lines during the conversation with Foreman remains a big mystery, as does his enigmatic reaction at the end. I think the writers were attempting to show a fun "one-upmanship" relationship between all the guys, maybe. It's a guy thing. Their relationships are based upon a game of chess - contests against each other without any of the emotional stuff like loyalty or consideration of another's feelings. Foreman wanted to see the fight, but really - he could have gotten his own tickets if it was that important to him (he's Dean of Medicine so presumably he could afford them - lol). Same with Wilson - the tickets were given to him because a patient wasn't able to use them. So it isn't like the boxing match was THAT important to ANY of them. It all became more of a contest to see who got his way and put one over on the others. I think the writers would like to have Foreman be seen as less boring than he has always been. They want us to think this is just standard behaviour for "House the (always-has-been) selfish jerk" and "Wilson the oft-duped-and-long-suffering sidekick". It was very poorly executed, though. (Kinda like that horrible finale "Moving On" when they all just ASSUMED the viewing audience would think it was no big deal and House was just playing another prank without hurting anyone.) They seem to feel the need to constantly up the ante and make House's character more and more over-the-top and jerky and reckless as the show progresses.

In this case, I can only assume that Foreman and House thought it would just be a fun "GOTCHA" prank to play on Wilson - who would just let it slide and admire the well-played scam. I guess Foreman was saying (to House): "Don't try to scam me, but work with me and I'll work with you." and (to Wilson): "I can be just as devious as YOU guys can be". And the writers want us to think House was just struggling all along to get his own way and win the contest somehow. At first what was important to him was to spend time with Wilson - but then the puzzle of how to get around the restriction became the only important thing - and eventually just getting around the system to go to the boxing match became the ultimate goal in House's eyes. IMHO: It is not supposed to be important that he screwed Wilson in the process. The viewers aren't supposed to notice or care about that. That's just supposed to be how their relationship goes. Much as the fans would like to see a caring and loving friendship at least (if not slash) - TPTB are frightened of, or unable to realistically portray, that type of relationship - so they resort to this sort of thing. Sad.

Date: 2011-11-18 06:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pgrabia.livejournal.com
I wonder if DS isn't sabotaging the bromance because he hates the fact that the fans have seen the subtext of there being more between House and Wilson. Maybe he's trying to kill the subtext and in the process killing the characters?

ETA: As much as I'm determined to find the positives in the show, in my mind the series ended with "Black Hole" in season six. In my mind, Wilson gave House the organ, gave that come hither look he gave and then headed for the bedroom. Instead of staying at the organ and playing it right away, House got up and followed him into the bedroom. Everything else is invalid.
Edited Date: 2011-11-18 06:55 pm (UTC)

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Date: 2011-11-19 06:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] damigella-314.livejournal.com
And Wilson's delivery of his lines during the conversation with Foreman remains a big mystery, as does his enigmatic reaction at the end.
Those are two details that confused me no end. It's not like RSL can't act, so I guess he did what he was told, looking like it didn't make much sense to him either.

I think the comparison to Moving On in terms of shoddy writing and underestimation of said shoddiness is quite right, although of course (as you rightly noticed) it really isn;t that important an issue.

Date: 2011-11-18 06:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yarroway.livejournal.com
The more I think about this episode and Risky Business, the less I understand anything. I don't think they're even trying to have it make sense any more.

I'm going to give it a little while longer, and then I may have to go back to not watching again.

Date: 2011-11-18 07:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] brindlewolf.livejournal.com
I'll always watch. I'm hooked. It's like vicodin to me! But I'll still bitch about the things I don't like that they're doing to the show now. :-)
At least the discussions are fun! ♥

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Date: 2011-11-19 06:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] damigella-314.livejournal.com
You're right. Risky Business was just as nonsensical and in many ways even worse. But like brindlewolf, I'm hooked. To make me stop watching they'd have to fire at least one of them, and probably both (which would be the end of the show).

Date: 2011-11-19 06:20 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] chocolate-frapp.livejournal.com
what bothered me a little is you never heard anything about any of those guys being boxing fans till that eppie. (and your English is just fine, sweetie!)

Date: 2011-11-19 06:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] damigella-314.livejournal.com
There was a mention of a boxing bet in S7, but we certainly hadn't heard anything until then. Monster truck shows, medical soap operas and nature documentaries seem to have been completely forgotten. So much for continuity.

PS Listening comprehension is very mysterious. I usually have big trouble understanding US Americans, except people I really like :).

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Date: 2011-11-20 12:21 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] taiga13.livejournal.com
I'll take a crack at it, why not?
1) Two reasons. One, Wilson has no power over Foreman. The writers forgot about the whole tenure thing after the Volger arc, since S2 it's been canon that the Dean can fire anyone at will. Two, Wilson never holds a grudge. Or is a spineless imbecile. Depends on how you look at it.
2) Boxing is a guy thing. Don't try to understand it.
3) Foreman just wanted to see the boxing match and didn't care that he had to lie and steal to do it; it's been canon since S2 that Foreman will lie and steal to get what he wants. House has always lied and stole to get what he wants and prides himself on the fact, nor does he care who he hurts to get what he wants. The only way he could go to the fight was to get Foreman to give him permission, the only way to get that permission was to give Foreman one of the tickets, and the only way to get the tickets was to have Foreman swindle Wilson. Some fans are claiming that the whole thing was Foreman's idea, but if it was then why take House to the fight??? The scheme must have been House's.
House wanted to go to the fight, he had to cheat and steal from his best friend to do it, so he did.
I've also heard fans argue that Wilson deserved it because he was abandoning House to go to the fight that House couldn't attend. I say, House not being able to go to Atlantic City is THE WHOLE POINT OF BEING UNDER HOME-AND-WORK ARREST. It's PUNISHMENT, he's SUPPOSED to find it hard. Boo hoo if he has to pass up an opportunity to go to a goddamn boxing match.
I found the whole thing confusing too. I didn't understand why Wilson would hand over the tickets to Foreman or his reaction upon seeing House and Foreman at the fight. RSL must have thought Wilson's motivations as nonsensical as we do.

Date: 2011-11-20 09:21 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] damigella-314.livejournal.com
LOL at the spineless imbecile. I am a bit envious of you native speakers and your command of this wonderful language. Glad you found it unlikely to be Foreman's ide?.. which we know only because the writer said it was. Enough said about the writer's technical ability. As for the "guy thing" you know that liking Douglas Adams is a guy thing :). [Maybe you're a guy?]

In Italy prison's official purpose is to make the criminal improve, not punishment (that's nothing to do with actual Italian prisons). Wonder whether the same is true in the US.

RSL... as we do.
That's precisely what I thought. Sadly.

[Your icon fits so well with this post!!!]

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Date: 2011-11-21 02:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ladyinverness23.livejournal.com
The thing that didn't make sense to me the most was Wilson's reaction to Foreman's little talk about him needing to be the "jerk boss" and Wilson needing to be the friend. The way he acted and said "you're right," to me sounded like he was thinking about something else and had another plan to see the boxing match with House and just said that to Foreman to keep him happy. I don't know. But I really really don't like boxing and don't see the attraction at all. Maybe all those head injuries keep Foreman in a job.

As for the other questions, I have no answers because I don't understand it much. Maybe it was all just a hilarious prank. I admit I did laugh at how Foreman pulled that one off. But House was looking forward to Saturday with Wilson and then Wilson tells him he can see it live. House tries to go too. Wilson asks Foreman to let House go. Everything was pointing to the fact that they wanted to spend time together.

Date: 2011-11-21 05:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] damigella-314.livejournal.com
Everything was pointing to the fact that they wanted to spend time together.
Yes, it seems weird that House would rather go with Foreman. It's not like he seemed to enjoy himself so much with Foreman anyway. And if he chose to go rather than staying home but the trickster was Foreman they might have said so.

And RSL's acting in the Foreman scene seems to have confused every single one of us. [Say hi to the summer for me!]

Date: 2011-11-22 12:45 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] karaokegal.livejournal.com
Agreed that it's very hard to make that matches previous canon, when we clearly know said canon better than anyone on the staff. But I'll re-take my theme of the day. By taking away Wilson's status as the designated cheater, and giving it to Taub, unbelievable as that it, they've complete taken away any power has
in the House/Wilson relationship, either as a friendship or a sexual/emotional affair.

Last week he was acting old-school enough to want to keep an eye on Wilson, but we KNOW that Wilson's been completely deprived of his mojo. He's not screwing around. Therefore House has nothing to worry about, therefore he's free to ignore Wilson and walk all over him. Wilson can ONLY hurt House by having sex or an emotional connection with someone else. (Compare Parents with Sports Medicine.)

Date: 2011-11-22 10:04 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] damigella-314.livejournal.com
Wilson can ONLY hurt House by having sex or an emotional connection with someone else.
Sam, Grace, Nora, even the horrible liver transplant guy... and most recently, the birthday party. You're definitely onto something.
Or, better, you would be if I trusted the writers to actually remember anything of the past seasons, or even of past episodes.

[OT icon question: what is banned in the USA? Any bare ass or that specific one?]

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